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Post by stunzisox on Apr 10, 2024 12:47:23 GMT -5
After watching yesterdays game and seeing the butterfly effect of Story's injury manifest itself in the on field product, I can't help but focus in on how to sure up the defense AND put the best product on the field. My mind invariably goes to moving Cedanne in to short and realigning the outfield with Duran in Center, and then O'Neill/Abreu in, pick a corner, with Ref only a few weeks out from his return to platoon with Abreu. That should have positive defensive reverberations around the diamond and you benefit from keeping those bats in the lineup each day.
Should we be looking externally? Do we need to punt on 2024, officially, only 11 games in (crushing)? God fordbid do we 'pull cord in case of emergency' and fast track Mayer and risk ruining him?
Few good options but a conversation that must be had. What say you?
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Post by asm18 on Apr 10, 2024 13:03:10 GMT -5
I would like an external addition - I just don't know how realistic it is to get one on April 10th. The White Sox have Paul Dejong and Nicky Lopez, the Cardinals have Brandon Crawford as their backup SS, as examples . If you wanted to target a CF and move Ceddanne to SS full-time the Mets have Harrison Bader. I hope Craig is working the phones and seeing who has a veteran shortshop with basic defensive competency - it's just unclear if we get one for the time being.
To be honest, to me it's less a question of whether you want Ceddanne in CF or SS, and more who you want getting playing time between Romy/Reyes/Hamilton/Abreu (with Rafaela going to SS as a result). I would be inclined towards Abreu, but he has not looked good so far.
As much I'm going to hate it, I think the best option might to mix it up and see who pans out between these all options (including mixing Ceddanne in at SS) - which is probably what they'll do. Like imagine if Romy Gonzalez - who was mashing in Worcester - has a flash in the pan season. You ride whoever is looking good for as long as you can until you can finally make a trade.
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 10, 2024 13:03:10 GMT -5
Under no circumstances does fast tracking Mayer make any sort of sense.
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Post by vokuhila on Apr 10, 2024 13:34:37 GMT -5
The team already showed their hand. They will run with the "internal options".
The Marlins DFA'd Jacob Amaya after a terrible camp on April 2nd and traded him to the Astros for an unranked AA pitcher four days later.
MLB and Longenhagen have him as a 55/50 defender and 45 hitter with solid walk and K rates in AAA last year.
"Amaya is a quality defender at shortstop with smooth actions, quick and sure hands, a solid and accurate arm and a good internal clock. He has average speed but solid range and is working to enhance his first-step quickness so that he can cover more ground. He's also quite capable at second and third base."
"Amaya is a skills-over-tools infielder whose at-bat quality and viability at shortstop should enable him to play a utility infield role in the near future. ... His hands were uncharacteristically inconsistent at the end of 2022, but Amaya has historically been a plus hands and actions shortstop with average range and arm strength."
I would have loved that pickup.
Either they don't value him highly or they feel like we have enough fringe/AAAA middle-infield/utility depth.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 10, 2024 13:38:34 GMT -5
The team already showed their hand. They will run with the "internal options". The Marlins DFA'd Jacob Amaya after a terrible camp on April 2nd and traded him to the Astros for an unranked AA pitcher four days later. MLB and Longenhagen have him as a 55/50 defender and 45 hitter with solid walk and K rates in AAA last year. "Amaya is a quality defender at shortstop with smooth actions, quick and sure hands, a solid and accurate arm and a good internal clock. He has average speed but solid range and is working to enhance his first-step quickness so that he can cover more ground. He's also quite capable at second and third base." "Amaya is a skills-over-tools infielder whose at-bat quality and viability at shortstop should enable him to play a utility infield role in the near future. ... His hands were uncharacteristically inconsistent at the end of 2022, but Amaya has historically been a plus hands and actions shortstop with average range and arm strength." I would have loved that pickup. Either they don't value him highly or they feel like we have enough fringe/AAAA middle-infield/utility depth. It seems relevant that Story's injury didn't occur until late on April 5th and he didn't even get his initial evaluation until late the next day.
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Post by bishop on Apr 10, 2024 13:39:15 GMT -5
Under no circumstances does fast tracking Mayer make any sort of sense. The way he ended last season and looked this spring I'd actually consider Anthony if he was the SS and Mayer the OF... but not a chance at all with Mayer. Let's see a couple hundred healthy at bats and some success in the upper minors, mayyyyyybe it's a 2nd half or stretch run option but not now.
Once Refsnyder is back (and that one should be soon since he's starting rehab and a vet with a straightforward bone break who had mostly a full spring training) I want to see more Cedanne in the IF, though honestly if he's in vs lefties with Reyes and he's at 2B instead of SS whatever. Once Grissom comes back it becomes more of a conversation, but I assume his "rehab" will be longer since he had no ST at bats. Overall I was less of a Cedanne to SS guy at first, but the more I think about it that's my answer. What external trade option is meaningfully better than Pablo Reyes, and if you have one (Dejong?) do you want him getting 400+ at bats that could be going to a combo of Cedanne, Abreu, Valdez, Grissom? This absolutely blows but if it ends up being more of a shakeout year than the frisky team I thought we had so be it.
One thing I am quite certain of is that I'm good with seeing Romy or Hamilton as "the answer", even as half of a platoon with Reyes or Valdez in a sense with Reyes swinging. I don't think either are a long term investment, I want those AB's going to guys who are.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Apr 10, 2024 13:51:54 GMT -5
Especially with Grissom on the horizon as the everyday 2b, there are enough players in house to keep the SS position covered until they are comfortable bringing Mayer up. Maybe after 50 minor league games ? Maybe after all star break ? His performance can dictate when, but he is the next guy up for the position long term and if he proves to be the best we have now,I would be comfortable with Mayer joining the bigs in 2024. My official vote is roll with the AAAA types until such time.
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Post by asm18 on Apr 10, 2024 14:07:07 GMT -5
It would be reckless to call up Mayer at this point... but just to ask the question, is his glove major league ready at short? Like in a fantasy land where we're in 1st place in July (which we won't), and all we need is a sure-handed shortshop, could he do it better than most of the guys they are sending out there right now?
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Post by wamderingdude on Apr 10, 2024 14:16:32 GMT -5
Story’s defense is obviously going to be missed the most, but i’m surprised about how little is being talked about how missing his bat is going to be. He obviously hasn’t hit well the last couple of years but i was expecting him to be a slightly above average hitter. The offense hasn’t looked particularly good and replacing him with Dejong or whoever and keeping rafaela’s bat in the lineup is just way to many zeros at the plate for my liking. I know wilyer has had his struggles in spring and regular season so far, but he did just have a great year last year in both AAA and the bigs. I’d move rafaela and play wilyer against every righty, with ref getting the lefties when he’s back soon, for at least a month and then decide if we need external additions.
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Post by greenmonster on Apr 10, 2024 14:31:59 GMT -5
I think the correct move is to trade for a veteran middle infielder (Ahmed, DeJong, B.Crawford, Wendle). They would help stabilize the infield defensively and offer some veteran leadership to the core of young players. Then when Mayer is ready to debut (2025ish) they won't be blocking his path. I have no idea what the trade cost would be at this point of the season but the Red Sox have enough system depth to find something that works. Even if they have to slightly overpay, its important to remember that the infield defense will impact the success/health of the pitching staff. Recently DFA'd Tony Kemp might also have some value although I think he has been more a 2Bman and a SS
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Apr 10, 2024 14:36:02 GMT -5
I voted internal. While I do believe this is a quality team, I don't think the timeframe to win at an extremely high level is right now, so I would prefer giving David Hamilton a shot as the org seems to believe in him and see if that + a sporadic Rafaela game + a little Pablo (especially post-Grissom) works out for you. If the ASB rolls around and it's not working out, I think a lot of the veteran names greenmonster named will still be available, and realistically I don't think the effort to give the home grown guys a chance is going to cost them a ton of wins in itself.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 10, 2024 14:37:43 GMT -5
My vote is external
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 10, 2024 14:38:44 GMT -5
I think the correct move is to trade for a veteran middle infielder (Ahmed, DeJong, B.Crawford, Wendle). They would help stabilize the infield defensively and offer some veteran leadership to the core of young players. Then when Mayer is ready to debut (2025ish) they won't be blocking his path. I have no idea what the trade cost would be at this point of the season but the Red Sox have enough system depth to find something that works. Even if they have to slightly overpay, its important to remember that the infield defense will impact the success/health of the pitching staff. Recently DFA'd Tony Kemp might also have some value although I think he has been more a 2Bman and a SS I agree and you kind of allude to it but who would be available at this point? I don't really think they should go out and overpay for a mediocre option like DeJong but I guess it would have to depend on how much of an overpay. As we all know games count right now as much as they do in July-Sept so dropping games right now due to poor SS play could really sink their season before we even get to the deadline. I do have a hard time seeing anyone in the current org other than moving Rafaela to SS which is robbing Peter to pay Paul being above replacement level player. So the sooner they can get a stop gap SS the better.
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Post by trotman on Apr 10, 2024 14:46:15 GMT -5
Redsox.com injury news says Refsnyder will be starting tonight in AAA. Grissom will start his rehab assignment in AAA on Saturday. For folks who know more about rehab assignment durations how long until they're back with the MLB roster?
Edit: Max time on Minor League rehab assignment is 20 days. So worst case Ref is back April 30th and Grissom back May 4th. May the Force be strong and injuries stay away from the entire team.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 10, 2024 14:51:42 GMT -5
I'm fine with giving the job to Hamilton. I don't really have any interest in giving the job to some vet that is barely hanging on.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 10, 2024 14:57:20 GMT -5
I’m okay with rolling with Hamilton for a bit because the org seems high on him and his defense. It’s confusing because every time I see him he looks like the SP reports say he is - fringey at best. I’d like to give it some more time in MLB to decide though.
I don’t want to move Rafaela because they don’t have another player who is capable of playing centerfield.
I would not have huge leash for Reyes or Gonzalez, sure give them some time, but if they are still bad and the team is still competing in a month I’d like the team to replace them with someone who at least is a good defender.
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Post by soxinsf on Apr 10, 2024 14:58:07 GMT -5
If there were an external choice that changed the trajectory for this season, then I could agree with you. But Nick Ahmed and Brandon Crawford won’t do it. And without Giolito and without Pivetta for possibly more than a couple of weeks, a better option than Hamilton/Romy but not as good as Story feels unjustified. Maybe later if the Sox surprise to the upside.
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 10, 2024 15:08:08 GMT -5
I know he's hurt right now but I want to try and think outside the box a little bit. I'd make a run at Tommy Edman if the Cardinals would trade him for a reasonable price. With Story's newest injury and his injury history since his time in Boston I feel like it would be a good idea to not just look at rental stopgap types and perhaps a guy who can play SS that is controlled for this season and next.
Edman also has the ability to play the OF if Story is able to come back and re-take SS full time next year which is certainly possible. Or if Mayer is ready next year Edman can still be a really good utility guy. This injury to Story and the some other injuries they've had really illustrates how poor the depth was built for this season at least in my eyes. They need more viable bench pieces that can step in and keep the team going if/when injuries occur.
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Post by ephus on Apr 10, 2024 15:20:06 GMT -5
Can we add a 4th option? Play the next three series and see where the team is at.
The Red Sox have two more against the Os, then host the Angels and Cleveland. If the team goes 6-3 or better, roll with it into Pittsburgh and reassess again in early May. If the team goes 5-4 or worse look outside the organization and make a change before things get out of hand.
I like the idea of giving a young team the chance to show they are resilient and have that "next man up" mentality, which is needed to become a winner.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,138
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Post by cdj on Apr 10, 2024 15:20:27 GMT -5
The team already showed their hand. They will run with the "internal options". The Marlins DFA'd Jacob Amaya after a terrible camp on April 2nd and traded him to the Astros for an unranked AA pitcher four days later. MLB and Longenhagen have him as a 55/50 defender and 45 hitter with solid walk and K rates in AAA last year. "Amaya is a quality defender at shortstop with smooth actions, quick and sure hands, a solid and accurate arm and a good internal clock. He has average speed but solid range and is working to enhance his first-step quickness so that he can cover more ground. He's also quite capable at second and third base." "Amaya is a skills-over-tools infielder whose at-bat quality and viability at shortstop should enable him to play a utility infield role in the near future. ... His hands were uncharacteristically inconsistent at the end of 2022, but Amaya has historically been a plus hands and actions shortstop with average range and arm strength." I would have loved that pickup. Either they don't value him highly or they feel like we have enough fringe/AAAA middle-infield/utility depth. It seems relevant that Story's injury didn't occur until late on April 5th and he didn't even get his initial evaluation until late the next day. It’s also relevant that the worst team in the sport to date was like “ehhhhhh see ya” to the guy, would he really an upgrade over Romy? One year stop gap would be best, those White Sox options are probably the best bet
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,138
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Post by cdj on Apr 10, 2024 15:22:37 GMT -5
If there were an external choice that changed the trajectory for this season, then I could agree with you. But Nick Ahmed and Brandon Crawford won’t do it. And without Giolito and without Pivetta for possibly more than a couple of weeks, a better option than Hamilton/Romy but not as good as Story feels unjustified. Maybe later if the Sox surprise to the upside. I’m not even necessarily looking to change the trajectory of the season, I’m just looking at removing stress from the pitchers so they don’t have to get 4 or 5 outs in an inning
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Post by ephus on Apr 10, 2024 15:34:45 GMT -5
If there were an external choice that changed the trajectory for this season, then I could agree with you. But Nick Ahmed and Brandon Crawford won’t do it. And without Giolito and without Pivetta for possibly more than a couple of weeks, a better option than Hamilton/Romy but not as good as Story feels unjustified. Maybe later if the Sox surprise to the upside. I’m not even necessarily looking to change the trajectory of the season, I’m just looking at removing stress from the pitchers so they don’t have to get 4 or 5 outs in an inning This is a point that should not be under-appreciated. There is no reason to think Bello doesn't go six if they turned the double play in the sixth or he doesn't need to get an extra out in the fourth.
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Apr 10, 2024 15:53:59 GMT -5
I think we all agree Mayer isn’t getting fast-tracked. Maybe a different story if he doesn’t get hurt last year, but that’s semantics. Nobody has mentioned Anthony though, coupled with a Rafaela move to SS. I think there’s a non-zero chance Anthony blows away Portland and is an option the second half of the season. All-star break at the absolute earliest? And dependent on where the Sox are at, of course. That feels more likely than Mayer, even if it’s still not very likely.
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Post by asm18 on Apr 10, 2024 16:02:45 GMT -5
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Post by ephus on Apr 10, 2024 16:18:07 GMT -5
Fair point by Lou, but someone get brother a Claritin D and tell him to watch where he's walking. I thought he was gonna get hit by a car or freight train a baby stroller. We're all with you dude, but safety first.
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