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4/12-4/14 Red Sox vs. Angels Series Thread
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 12, 2024 11:52:45 GMT -5
I need to see one last Bobby Bomb. Bat him lead off until it happens.
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Post by rhswanzey on Apr 12, 2024 12:01:32 GMT -5
Dalbec legitimately might be hitting in the heart of the order tonight. This is a lot of fun He hit fifth last time against Detmers
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Post by redsoxfansince94 on Apr 12, 2024 12:09:07 GMT -5
Bobby Dalbec is back? I’m going to vomit.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 12, 2024 12:10:34 GMT -5
It's really mind-boggling... Story, in some ways, has been *precisely* the thing this team needs - a perfect fit for stabilizing the defense and supporting the pitching staff. Last year he was injured for most of the year, and things couldn't possibly have gone worse. It was a disaster for the team, and in just such a way as to produce the most frustrating fan experience imaginable.
So after that miserable trial, he comes back healthy this season, has a monster spring training, looks incredible on defense for a week - just exactly what the team needed. A huge breath of pristine alpine meadow air.
And then: season-ending injury, followed by a comedy of literal errors, every single one of which seems to bite the team in the ass. And we are staring ahead at a long hard summer of exactly the sort that we thought we had left behind in 2023.
I just don't understand how the drop-off at SS is so severe that's it either "Gold Glove caliber" or "does not know how to step on a base" and with seemingly no basic competent options in-between (who aren't Rafaela). Nick Ahmed signed a minor league deal, Brandon Crawford signed a 1 year 2 mil deal to be a backup. Those guys exist. Heck, the team has been drafting California shortstops en masse for 4 years now lol! Yet there's not anyone in the org major-league ready or otherwise who can complete a double play? To paraphrase the GOAT, "We have kids at Foxboro high school who can do that." I'd really like a journalistic deep dive on the team's internal evaluation of Hamilton. The scouting report is not positive. And he hasn't been great. But they keep telling us they believe in him as a defensive shortstop and even gave him that defensive player of the year award. And in truth, he does look pretty good to me when he's not making egregious mistakes. But then he... makes egregious mistakes. So I don't know what to make of it.
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Post by melvinhoggs on Apr 12, 2024 12:11:09 GMT -5
It's really mind-boggling... Story, in some ways, has been *precisely* the thing this team needs - a perfect fit for stabilizing the defense and supporting the pitching staff. Last year he was injured for most of the year, and things couldn't possibly have gone worse. It was a disaster for the team, and in just such a way as to produce the most frustrating fan experience imaginable.
So after that miserable trial, he comes back healthy this season, has a monster spring training, looks incredible on defense for a week - just exactly what the team needed. A huge breath of pristine alpine meadow air.
And then: season-ending injury, followed by a comedy of literal errors, every single one of which seems to bite the team in the ass. And we are staring ahead at a long hard summer of exactly the sort that we thought we had left behind in 2023.
I just don't understand how the drop-off at SS is so severe that's it either "Gold Glove caliber" or "does not know how to step on a base" and with seemingly no basic competent options in-between (who aren't Rafaela). Nick Ahmed signed a minor league deal, Brandon Crawford signed a 1 year 2 mil deal to be a backup. Those guys exist. Heck, the team has been drafting California shortstops en masse for 4 years now lol! Yet there's not anyone in the org major-league ready or otherwise who can complete a double play? To paraphrase the GOAT, "We have kids at Foxboro high school who can do that." Yeah, the Story narrative is going strong right now, but Story isn't even close to being the only guy who could "stabilize the defense and support the pitching staff". I'm aware of small sample size, but Story was also hitting terribly (as he has for most of his Sox tenure) – if the team completely falls apart and can't function without a great-defense SS with a .269 wOBA, then uhh... go get one? Why is Story all of a sudden the flag that all players rally behind?
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Post by wamderingdude on Apr 12, 2024 12:18:45 GMT -5
Maybe i’m overrating what story’s bat truly is now, but i thought he had the potential to provide Gold Glove defense and put up like a 110 WRC+. Replacing his bat with one of those guys should in theory should replace the defense, but that just leaves so many holes on offense. Catcher, Short, and Center are all bad hitters (maybe Reese really is catching Luis Arraez but i don’t expect that to continue) and that’s before taking into account what Vaughn is going to do. It’s obviously been glaring the last three days on the defense end, but i’m also concerned about replacing the offense he should have provided.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 12, 2024 12:25:08 GMT -5
I just don't understand how the drop-off at SS is so severe that's it either "Gold Glove caliber" or "does not know how to step on a base" and with seemingly no basic competent options in-between (who aren't Rafaela). Nick Ahmed signed a minor league deal, Brandon Crawford signed a 1 year 2 mil deal to be a backup. Those guys exist. Heck, the team has been drafting California shortstops en masse for 4 years now lol! Yet there's not anyone in the org major-league ready or otherwise who can complete a double play? To paraphrase the GOAT, "We have kids at Foxboro high school who can do that." Yeah, the Story narrative is going strong right now, but Story isn't even close to being the only guy who could "stabilize the defense and support the pitching staff". I'm aware of small sample size, but Story was also hitting terribly (as he has for most of his Sox tenure) – if the team completely falls apart and can't function without a great-defense SS with a .269 wOBA, then uhh... go get one?Why is Story all of a sudden the flag that all players rally behind? Well it's not that easy to just get a "great-defense SS." Like Brandon Crawford is +13 OAA since 2022 but also -8 UZR and -20 (!) DRS. And he's 37 and has a 77 wRC+ in that timespan. OAA also likes Ahmed but the other defensive stats are mixed, he's 34, and also has hit considerably worse than Story since 2022. And of course the Red Sox weren't gonna sign those guys anyway during the offseason since they figured they had a healthy Story.
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Post by melvinhoggs on Apr 12, 2024 12:45:22 GMT -5
Yeah, the Story narrative is going strong right now, but Story isn't even close to being the only guy who could "stabilize the defense and support the pitching staff". I'm aware of small sample size, but Story was also hitting terribly (as he has for most of his Sox tenure) – if the team completely falls apart and can't function without a great-defense SS with a .269 wOBA, then uhh... go get one?Why is Story all of a sudden the flag that all players rally behind? Well it's not that easy to just get a "great-defense SS." Like Brandon Crawford is +13 OAA since 2022 but also -8 UZR and -20 (!) DRS. And he's 37 and has a 77 wRC+ in that timespan. OAA also likes Ahmed but the other defensive stats are mixed, he's 34, and also has hit considerably worse than Story since 2022. And of course the Red Sox weren't gonna sign those guys anyway during the offseason since they figured they had a healthy Story. I mean... it's not that hard, either. I know they thought they had a healthy Story in the offseason, but guys like Ahmed and Crawford lasted well into the offseason and signed for peanuts because they simply aren't very valuable or sought-after, which means you could trade almost nothing to get someone like that. I know you don't want to trade "assets" from a mediocre team, but if the Sox collapse into a cloud of dust without a 65 wRC+ SS, is it not worth shuffling some prospect fodder around to do that? Heck, Jose Iglesias is in AAA right now. My main point is pushing back against the general vibe that Story is the glue that held everything together when he simply didn't provide anything (intangibles aside) that can't be pretty easily replaced/replicated. Losing what Story provided (not what people hoped he'd provide when he signed, which is very different) shouldn't be some crushing blow, and yet here we are with all evidence to the contrary.
A blow to that 90th-percentile outcome where the Red Sox sneak into the playoffs? Sure, because Story had some upside with the bat that these other guys we've mentioned don't have. But a wheels-come-off and defense-falls-apart-completely crushing blow? Like asm18 said, it just shouldn't have to be that way.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 12, 2024 12:52:07 GMT -5
Yeah, the Story narrative is going strong right now, but Story isn't even close to being the only guy who could "stabilize the defense and support the pitching staff". I'm aware of small sample size, but Story was also hitting terribly (as he has for most of his Sox tenure) – if the team completely falls apart and can't function without a great-defense SS with a .269 wOBA, then uhh... go get one?Why is Story all of a sudden the flag that all players rally behind? Well it's not that easy to just get a "great-defense SS." Like Brandon Crawford is +13 OAA since 2022 but also -8 UZR and -20 (!) DRS. And he's 37 and has a 77 wRC+ in that timespan. OAA also likes Ahmed but the other defensive stats are mixed, he's 34, and also has hit considerably worse than Story since 2022. And of course the Red Sox weren't gonna sign those guys anyway during the offseason since they figured they had a healthy Story. I feel like the White Sox would give up one of DeJong or Lopez if the Red Sox just agreed to take on their salary.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 12, 2024 12:57:28 GMT -5
Well it's not that easy to just get a "great-defense SS." Like Brandon Crawford is +13 OAA since 2022 but also -8 UZR and -20 (!) DRS. And he's 37 and has a 77 wRC+ in that timespan. OAA also likes Ahmed but the other defensive stats are mixed, he's 34, and also has hit considerably worse than Story since 2022. And of course the Red Sox weren't gonna sign those guys anyway during the offseason since they figured they had a healthy Story. I mean... it's not that hard, either. I know they thought they had a healthy Story in the offseason, but guys like Ahmed and Crawford lasted well into the offseason and signed for peanuts because they simply aren't very valuable or sought-after, which means you could trade almost nothing to get someone like that. I know you don't want to trade "assets" from a mediocre team, but if the Sox collapse into a cloud of dust without a 65 wRC+ SS, is it not worth shuffling some prospect fodder around to do that? Heck, Jose Iglesias is in AAA right now. My main point is pushing back against the general vibe that Story is the glue that held everything together when he simply didn't provide anything (intangibles aside) that can't be pretty easily replaced/replicated. Losing what Story provided (not what people hoped he'd provide when he signed, which is very different) shouldn't be some crushing blow, and yet here we are with all evidence to the contrary. Yeah I'd just disagree that what he provided can be easily replicated. He's an elite defender at SS and I don't think that anyone who could've been had for peanuts really compares. That's before even getting into the fact that he's clearly a better hitter than those other guys, especially if you compare his offensive ceiling to theirs.
Maybe Yu Chang would have been the best cheaply available defensive SS? But the reason he's cheap is that he projects for about a .600 OPS.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 12, 2024 13:03:30 GMT -5
Well it's not that easy to just get a "great-defense SS." Like Brandon Crawford is +13 OAA since 2022 but also -8 UZR and -20 (!) DRS. And he's 37 and has a 77 wRC+ in that timespan. OAA also likes Ahmed but the other defensive stats are mixed, he's 34, and also has hit considerably worse than Story since 2022. And of course the Red Sox weren't gonna sign those guys anyway during the offseason since they figured they had a healthy Story. I feel like the White Sox would give up one of DeJong or Lopez if the Red Sox just agreed to take on their salary. So I know I'm changing the terms of the debate here from "how easy is it to get a great defensive SS" to "how easy is it to get a good overall shortstop," but you can't overlook the fact that these are atrocious hitters. The Red Sox' offense doesn't have that much room for error to carry a playeer who projects for like a 70 wRC+. (And still, even just on defense I don't think either is as good as Story.)
If the in-house options were truly hopeless, I'd be interested in taking on one of those guys. But I'm much more interested in giving Hamilton a couple months to see what he can do, if they really do believe in him.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 12, 2024 13:04:23 GMT -5
Few responses so I'll try to respond to few different things.
The A's are the worst team in baseball. The Angels are going to be a sub-.500 team. In theory, a .500 team or slightly above should be able to handle them. If they aren't, it's more of a concern. My point is, this series just shows if they're on par or better than the Angels or are they really that bad?
Granted, the Orioles are also a super team so that's fair as well. How will the Red Sox respond when they face the likes of the Yankees, Rangers, Rays or whomever? They had 1 series against a quality opponent and got swept and errors and mental mistakes played a factor. I get their win-rate right now would be 100 games, but if they can't handle good teams I don't know what good that does them. Good teams beat bad teams. They also beat other good teams. But it was 1 series against a super team. Would need more samples.
Story isn't coming back so that is a season-long hole. Grissom I believe is still a month away and reports of bad defense good offense isn't great. I would wonder how long it'll take him to get into the swing of things after missing that much time. It's not like other injuries won't crop up either.
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Post by manfred on Apr 12, 2024 13:12:05 GMT -5
I just don't understand how the drop-off at SS is so severe that's it either "Gold Glove caliber" or "does not know how to step on a base" and with seemingly no basic competent options in-between (who aren't Rafaela). Nick Ahmed signed a minor league deal, Brandon Crawford signed a 1 year 2 mil deal to be a backup. Those guys exist. Heck, the team has been drafting California shortstops en masse for 4 years now lol! Yet there's not anyone in the org major-league ready or otherwise who can complete a double play? To paraphrase the GOAT, "We have kids at Foxboro high school who can do that." Yeah, the Story narrative is going strong right now, but Story isn't even close to being the only guy who could "stabilize the defense and support the pitching staff". I'm aware of small sample size, but Story was also hitting terribly (as he has for most of his Sox tenure) – if the team completely falls apart and can't function without a great-defense SS with a .269 wOBA, then uhh... go get one? Why is Story all of a sudden the flag that all players rally behind? I am no Story guy… was against signing him from go. BUT… he was winning me over this year. I don’t think he’ll ever hit again (never did), but his glove was a game changer. Under many circumstances, I agree one can drop from GG to average and be ok. But that is when you are average across the board. The Sox are largely bad defensively. Story and L’il Rafy are so important not just because they field their positions, but because as *elite* fielders, they essentially help field other positions, too. With Raffy at third and who knows who at 2b, even average at SS may not do. And butchery, as we’ve seen, is crippling. The other thing is just veteran calm. Story was a key guy as a field general, I think. There have been a few panicky looks the last few games.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 12, 2024 13:12:40 GMT -5
I feel like the White Sox would give up one of DeJong or Lopez if the Red Sox just agreed to take on their salary. So I know I'm changing the terms of the debate here from "how easy is it to get a great defensive SS" to "how easy is it to get a good overall shortstop," but you can't overlook the fact that these are atrocious hitters. The Red Sox' offense doesn't have that much room for error to carry a playeer who projects for like a 70 wRC+. (And still, even just on defense I don't think either is as good as Story.)
If the in-house options were truly hopeless, I'd be interested in taking on one of those guys. But I'm much more interested in giving Hamilton a couple months to see what he can do, if they really do believe in him.
Yeah I was responding to how easy is it to get a great defensive shortstop and I think the answer is pretty easy if they wanted to. Whether they should or not I go back and forth on. Based on how the org seems to look at Hamilton I’m interested in giving him some more run, but also it’s so hard to watch them lose games that way, and we have a lot of young guys in other positions, including pitchers who suffer from the poor defense. I’d also be okay swapping Reyes out for one of those guys so that the MLB roster has a good defensive option at the least.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 12, 2024 13:15:00 GMT -5
Yeah I'm still on board with Hamilton. Despite the boneheaded fielding mistakes I've thought he actually looks pretty athletic out there. He'll settle down, he had 12 errors last year between the majors and minors. He's got a chance to be a valuable bench piece on a more talented future roster.
Anyone that we acquire will have the fans groaning either when they step to the plate or a ball is hit their way, or both.
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Post by asm18 on Apr 12, 2024 13:17:19 GMT -5
I feel like the White Sox would give up one of DeJong or Lopez if the Red Sox just agreed to take on their salary. So I know I'm changing the terms of the debate here from "how easy is it to get a great defensive SS" to "how easy is it to get a good overall shortstop," but you can't overlook the fact that these are atrocious hitters. The Red Sox' offense doesn't have that much room for error to carry a playeer who projects for like a 70 wRC+. (And still, even just on defense I don't think either is as good as Story.)
If the in-house options were truly hopeless, I'd be interested in taking on one of those guys. But I'm much more interested in giving Hamilton a couple months to see what he can do, if they really do believe in him.
Yeah if like Enmanuel Valdez was raking at 2B, and one of the SS options could actually hit, maybe you make up for the shoddy defense up the middle. David Hamilton's .545 SLG through 12 plate appearances aside, not sure they can hit or defend. I would not be inclined to put Vaughn Grissom at SS, but if they really wanted to zag, you get another 2B who can hit and move Grissom over. But this might all be better served in "what do we do now that Story's gone" thread we have active. Can someone explain why Ron Washington still has Anthony Rendon still leading off?
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Post by 0ap0 on Apr 12, 2024 13:23:15 GMT -5
Can someone explain why Ron Washington still has Anthony Rendon still leading off? Guy's gotta be due for a hot streak, right?
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 12, 2024 13:43:40 GMT -5
Rendon's 6 for 21 with only two strikeouts in his last five games. Not that the 2021-23 Rendon is an ideal leadoff hitter either, but it's not like the team has a ton of OBP guys that he's overlooking. Obviously the 0-for to start the season has his line looking ugly, but the problem isn't that he's hitting leadoff, the problem is that there isn't another choice who is obviously better.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Apr 12, 2024 13:58:12 GMT -5
Dalbec legitimately might be hitting in the heart of the order tonight. This is a lot of fun Too bad we can't have a player who is a proven major leaguer to back up Devers and Casas. Someone like say - Justin Turner. I know he is getting older, but he did fine for the Red Sox last year and is off to a great start for Toronto. Still think they should have resigned him and Paxton.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 12, 2024 14:26:40 GMT -5
How do we feel about optioning Campbell to get an extra arm up? Have to figure he’s down for definitely game 1 and likely game 2. Probably need Winck (3 days rest) or Anderson (4) for game 2; neither is likely to top four innings. Pen is kind of spent as it is, so you might want to use Anderson tonight. Sounds like yes he is being optioned. Maybe call up Kelly or Jacques for tonight and then send him down for Criswell tomorrow?
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Post by wildsox on Apr 12, 2024 14:59:04 GMT -5
Tough Luck for Campbell.
2 bad outings and he's banished
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Apr 12, 2024 15:24:22 GMT -5
Tough Luck for Campbell. 2 bad outings and he's banished Oh Boy. Back to managing the pen by using options and call ups again.
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Post by asm18 on Apr 12, 2024 15:28:58 GMT -5
Is Bob only coming up for one day before they bring up Criswell for tomorrow? Campbell seems to be going down, but as of now the beat writers are suggesting Devers and Romy won’t go on IL.
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Post by 1toolplayer on Apr 12, 2024 15:31:32 GMT -5
Tough Luck for Campbell. 2 bad outings and he's banished Oh Boy. Back to managing the pen by using options and call ups again. What's wrong with that, esp early in the season? That's what the 40 man is for.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 12, 2024 15:40:30 GMT -5
Is Bob only coming up for one day before they bring up Criswell for tomorrow? Campbell seems to be going down, but as of now the beat writers are suggesting Devers and Romy won’t go on IL. could they not option Romy and then switch he and Dalbec in a couple days if he’s fine?
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