2013 Non-Sox MLB Discussion

[fenwaythehardway]

Aug 27, 2013 21:39:27 GMT -5 Don Caballero said:

Happ had previously broken Curtis Granderson's arm in spring training at the beginning of the year, so if Cano is seriously injured, you can blame everything on him.

Wow, there truly is stupid and "Yankees fan stupid".

Pretty sure he was joking.

[fenwaythehardway]

Aug 27, 2013 21:24:48 GMT -5 elguapo said:

Aug 27, 2013 20:19:49 GMT -5 fenwaythehardway said:

Just another reminder how throwing at guys is no big deal...

Wow - Happ threw at Cano intentionally? And all those other HBP were intentional, too? And the foul tip - was that intentional as well?

Someone is sure out to get the Yankees!

Apparently Cano has a bruise. Are we supposed to care every time a ballplayer gets a booboo?

Oh, that's right. Baseball only break bones when they hit people unintentionally. Baseballs thrown at people intentionally feel like a gentle hug and cure acne I guess.

[James Dunne]

Cole Hamels has allowed exactly two earned runs in nine starts this year. He's 0-6 when he does that. He's 0-13 when he allows more than one earned run.

[Oregon Norm]

Aug 28, 2013 12:21:01 GMT -5 James Dunne said:

Cole Hamels has allowed exactly two earned runs in nine starts this year. He's 0-6 when he does that. He's 0-13 when he allows more than one earned run.

Ruben Amaro, are you listening? That's the lineup you helped put together that's providing support...

[ianrs]

BA reporting Orioles add Mike Morse for 23 year old CF Xavier Avery: www.baseballamerica.com/majors/orioles-add-michael-morse-to-majors-most-powerful-lineup/

I'm pretty surprised Duquette has leveraged so much of the future on this season (or maybe I shouldn't be so surprised given his history with Boston). I know the value of that group of wins in the 80-90 range (and thus a playoff push) are absolutely massive, but it seems a bit shortsighted especially to be mostly playing for the wild card playoff. I think the Orioles are a good team, but not sure these are the types of trades that will keep them in the playoff hunt for long.

Who knows, maybe Morse awakens after the graveyard that is Safeco Field.

[pedroelgrande]

I don't think they have given up anyone they'll regret.

[mredsox89]

Aug 30, 2013 17:17:54 GMT -5 ianrs said:

BA reporting Orioles add Mike Morse for 23 year old CF Xavier Avery: www.baseballamerica.com/majors/orioles-add-michael-morse-to-majors-most-powerful-lineup/

I'm pretty surprised Duquette has leveraged so much of the future on this season (or maybe I shouldn't be so surprised given his history with Boston). I know the value of that group of wins in the 80-90 range (and thus a playoff push) are absolutely massive, but it seems a bit shortsighted especially to be mostly playing for the wild card playoff. I think the Orioles are a good team, but not sure these are the types of trades that will keep them in the playoff hunt for long.

Who knows, maybe Morse awakens after the graveyard that is Safeco Field.

When you do absolutely nothing to improve a team that barely held their head above water supported by an unsustainable record in close games this is what you have to do.

They really weren't that good last year, aren't anything more than mediocre this year (even though the Sox continue to have some trouble with them), and really need to do something to support the Jones/Davis combination

[mantush]

How do the non-sabermetrically inclined persons in baseball, particularly those that rave about pitcher wins, explain the performance of someone like Cole Hamels that has pitched much better than his record indicates? Does he lack the will to win? Or do they say wins don't matter in this case?

[ray88h66]

Aug 30, 2013 20:06:12 GMT -5 mantush said:

How do the non-sabermetrically inclined persons in baseball, particularly those that rave about pitcher wins, explain the performance of someone like Cole Hamels that has pitched much better than his record indicates? Does he lack the will to win? Or do they say wins don't matter in this case?

You're off message, Sabermetric people aren't suppose to care what non-sabermetric people think. We don't get it.

[Oregon Norm]

Aug 30, 2013 20:06:12 GMT -5 mantush said:

How do the non-sabermetrically inclined persons in baseball, particularly those that rave about pitcher wins, explain the performance of someone like Cole Hamels that has pitched much better than his record indicates? Does he lack the will to win? Or do they say wins don't matter in this case?

Not sure where you're coming from. Wins aren't the way to value a pitcher. There's a lot of luck involved in getting one, while the strikeouts, the walk rate, the ground ball to fly ball ratio - those tell you a lot about the skills the pitcher has, separate from whether he got the W. Good GMs use that stuff to find value where others might not. Lackey is a case in point. Those numbers look solid this year, but the wins don't show it up. He's still had real value for this team.

[Don Caballero]

Aug 30, 2013 20:06:12 GMT -5 mantush said:

How do the non-sabermetrically inclined persons in baseball, particularly those that rave about pitcher wins, explain the performance of someone like Cole Hamels that has pitched much better than his record indicates? Does he lack the will to win? Or do they say wins don't matter in this case?

Please, speak louder, I'm sure RAJ will hear you eventually and put Hamels in the block.

Hamels is my favorite pitcher in the majors, btw. As much as Keith Couch is my main man in the minors, having Hamels in our squad would beat even that.

[Chris Hatfield]

Aug 30, 2013 21:52:58 GMT -5 Oregon Norm said:

Aug 30, 2013 20:06:12 GMT -5 mantush said:

How do the non-sabermetrically inclined persons in baseball, particularly those that rave about pitcher wins, explain the performance of someone like Cole Hamels that has pitched much better than his record indicates? Does he lack the will to win? Or do they say wins don't matter in this case?

Not sure where you're coming from. Wins aren't the way to value a pitcher. There's a lot of luck involved in getting one, while the strikeouts, the walk rate, the ground ball to fly ball ratio - those tell you a lot about the skills the pitcher has, separate from whether he got the W. Good GMs use that stuff to find value where others might not. Lackey is a case in point. Those numbers look solid this year, but the wins don't show it up. He's still had real value for this team.

He's pretty clearly saying the very stuff you just said, just with sarcasm.

[mantush]

Aug 30, 2013 20:29:05 GMT -5 ray88h66 said:

Aug 30, 2013 20:06:12 GMT -5 mantush said:

How do the non-sabermetrically inclined persons in baseball, particularly those that rave about pitcher wins, explain the performance of someone like Cole Hamels that has pitched much better than his record indicates? Does he lack the will to win? Or do they say wins don't matter in this case?

You're off message, Sabermetric people aren't suppose to care what non-sabermetric people think. We don't get it.

I would at least like to hear one of them explain what Cole Hamels is doing wrong and why he has not been valuable to his team. I think it would be hilarious to see Harold Renyolds or someone say that "Cole Hamels is not that great of a pitcher this year because he has not been giving his team a chance to win games." No matter which way you cut it however they explain Hamels performance is probably going to result in some cognitive dissonance.

Don Caballero said:

Please, speak louder, I'm sure RAJ will hear you eventually and put Hamels in the block.

Hamels is my favorite pitcher in the majors, btw. As much as Keith Couch is my main man in the minors, having Hamels in our squad would beat even that.

He's my favorite pitcher, too.

@Oregon Norm said:

Not sure where you're coming from. Wins aren't the way to value a pitcher. There's a lot of luck involved in getting one, while the strikeouts, the walk rate, the ground ball to fly ball ratio - those tell you a lot about the skills the pitcher has, separate from whether he got the W. Good GMs use that stuff to find value where others might not. Lackey is a case in point. Those numbers look solid this year, but the wins don't show it up. He's still had real value for this team.

I know all this, but I want to hear someone that legitimately believes Cole Hamels is a bad starting pitcher because of his win-loss record explain their rationale to me. Does he lack the will to win because he doesn't throw a no-hitter every time he starts? Or would they just admit that the Phillies aren't that great of a team this year? And if they admit to the latter, they can't then, in the next breath, rationally argue that a pitcher's win-loss record is indicative of his performance if they have admitted there is a team component, can they?

[Oregon Norm]

Got it, got it... Took me a while. The talking heads, need to keep talking, even if they've got nothing to say. There's air time to suck up after all. Reynolds, for all his bull-headed chatter is not the worst in my book. That honor goes to Mitch Williams who pulls even more stuff out of his... but I digress.

[chavopepe2]

Aug 31, 2013 6:56:30 GMT -5 mantush said:

Aug 30, 2013 20:29:05 GMT -5 ray88h66 said:

You're off message, Sabermetric people aren't suppose to care what non-sabermetric people think. We don't get it.

I would at least like to hear one of them explain what Cole Hamels is doing wrong and why he has not been valuable to his team. I think it would be hilarious to see Harold Renyolds or someone say that "Cole Hamels is not that great of a pitcher this year because he has not been giving his team a chance to win games." No matter which way you cut it however they explain Hamels performance is probably going to result in some cognitive dissonance.

Don Caballero said:

Please, speak louder, I'm sure RAJ will hear you eventually and put Hamels in the block.

Hamels is my favorite pitcher in the majors, btw. As much as Keith Couch is my main man in the minors, having Hamels in our squad would beat even that.

He's my favorite pitcher, too.

@Oregon Norm said:

Not sure where you're coming from. Wins aren't the way to value a pitcher. There's a lot of luck involved in getting one, while the strikeouts, the walk rate, the ground ball to fly ball ratio - those tell you a lot about the skills the pitcher has, separate from whether he got the W. Good GMs use that stuff to find value where others might not. Lackey is a case in point. Those numbers look solid this year, but the wins don't show it up. He's still had real value for this team.

I know all this, but I want to hear someone that legitimately believes Cole Hamels is a bad starting pitcher because of his win-loss record explain their rationale to me. Does he lack the will to win because he doesn't throw a no-hitter every time he starts? Or would they just admit that the Phillies aren't that great of a team this year? And if they admit to the latter, they can't then, in the next breath, rationally argue that a pitcher's win-loss record is indicative of his performance if they have admitted there is a team component, can they?

I think you're in the wrong place. Even those that are more traditionalist on this board wouldn't argue what you are looking for.

[pedroelgrande]

The sabermetrics vs non-sabermetrics debate is the stupidest debate I've seen. It's like arguing wether Harodld Reynolds is a good analyst. People pick sides just for the sake of it.

[johnsilver52]

"Cashner pumping 100 with serious armside run. That's some #rig"

Chris... You left out the best part...

Cashner was STILL hitting 100mph on pitch number **106**

He was hitting 97-99 even on 107-110. That guy is amazing.

[soxcentral]

The Rays apparent collapse could make for a very interesting Wild Card race. MFY now 2 games out of a playoff spot, Tito's Indians just 3 back, and the perennially horrible Royals just 4 1/2 out.

[pedroelgrande]

Congrats to the Pirates on their first non losing season in 20 years.

[tallthrill]

This is a pretty sick tool:
mrphilroth.com/mlbpayrolls/

It seems almost certain that the NYY will give up the #1 spot to LAD in 2014... accounting for the impact of Cano plus FA pitcher(s) minus ARod suspension salary impact.

[jmei]

Presented without comment:
espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9633091/jim-leyland-detroit-tigers-manager-blasts-run-support-statistic-supports-max-scherzer
deadspin.com/kill-killthewin-the-fight-over-stats-in-baseball-has-1215035866

[mainesox]

Sept 4, 2013 10:06:43 GMT -5 jmei said:

Presented without comment:
espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9633091/jim-leyland-detroit-tigers-manager-blasts-run-support-statistic-supports-max-scherzer
deadspin.com/kill-killthewin-the-fight-over-stats-in-baseball-has-1215035866

He said "I'd rather have a pitcher nobody is talking about who has won 15 games than somebody everyone is raving about who has won five," but all I heard was "in 2011 John Lackey was better than Doug Fister."

[elguapo]

Leyland is absolutely right, of course, and didn't say anything controversial. You'd have to be absurdly myopic to devalue a pitcher because he gets good run support.

[ibsmith85]

Keith Law, Buster Olney, and Jim Bowden collaborated on ESPN's annual "Future Power Rankings" list today. The mighty Red Sox placed 2nd only behind the Cardinals.

The Overview
This ranking would have seemed surprising a year ago, but GM Ben Cherington deftly played the free-agent market last winter, adding impact talent without breaking the bank or forfeiting any draft picks. (None of the players Boston signed had qualifying offers attached to him.) And because the Red Sox were able to get rid of so much dead money in their blockbuster deal with the Dodgers a year ago, they maintain financial flexibility. -- Buster Olney

The Dilemma
Jacoby Ellsbury is having a fine walk year leading up to free agency, and Boston must determine how much it is willing to pay the center fielder. Ellsbury, however, is represented by Scott Boras, who rarely moves fast in free agency. The decision on Ellsbury will have an impact on whether or not the Red Sox bring back Mike Napoli to play first base or pursue Cuban first baseman Juan Abreu. -- Jim Bowden

The New "Guy"
Mookie Betts has exploded through two levels of the minors this season, putting up a .314/.417/.506 line. He's a plus runner and above-average defender at second who's shown strong plate discipline and good feel to hit. -- Keith Law

AL East foes - TB (5), Bal (9), NY (11), Tor (24)

insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9612015/mlb-future-power-rankings-2013-update

[raftsox]

Sept 4, 2013 10:32:01 GMT -5 mainesox said:

Sept 4, 2013 10:06:43 GMT -5 jmei said:

Presented without comment:
espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9633091/jim-leyland-detroit-tigers-manager-blasts-run-support-statistic-supports-max-scherzer
deadspin.com/kill-killthewin-the-fight-over-stats-in-baseball-has-1215035866

He said "I'd rather have a pitcher nobody is talking about who has won 15 games than somebody everyone is raving about who has won five six," but all I heard was "in 2011 John Lackey was better than Doug Fister."

I'd certainly rather have Jorge DeLaRosa than Cole Hamels. Yup. Good to know Leyland would too.

Sarcasm aside, I do generally agree with him. The comments seemed a little vehement though; did the report say "Scherzer is a bad pitcher, he only has a great record because of his run support."?