Boston Celtics 2014-15 season

[rjp313jr]

Jan 24, 2015 15:51:31 GMT -5 umassgrad2005 said:

Jan 24, 2015 9:46:42 GMT -5 rjp313jr said:

Jordan also is a majorly over rated defender. He gets blocks but he's a terrible 1 v 1 defender. He gets help weak side blocks which is valuable but this just a shut down in the paint defender and in my kind of you are paying a center max money for defense and rebounding (and zero offense) he better be able to man up on opposing big men and he can't do that. He's a poor offensive player, poor one on one defender and a poor free throw shooter.

If this team were just his skill set away then yea I do it but they aren't.


I don't think they should add anyone in free agency.

Really not a single free agent? Why? What is your end game?  Stay in the lottery till we find a superstar? The problem I have with that plan is that Brad Stevens coaches to win. I know this isn't a bad thing, problem is he keeps playing all of our veteran players at the expense of our young talent. Stevens is a lot like Rivers in that he won't play young players if he can play veterans that will perform better. By doing this we are going to keep having games like our last two games. We are never going to get top 3 picks, heck its going to be hard for us to get top 5 picks. As you all know the chances of getting a superstar are much higher in the top 3 and even top 5. So Danny needs to either gut this team of useful veteran players hence forcing Stevens to play young players or start to add good young players by free agency or trades. 

Right now Danny seems to have us stuck in no mans land.  We aren't good enough to make playoffs and we aren't bad enough to get high lottery picks.  Why are Prince, Thornton and Bass getting 20, 15.6 and 19.4 minutes a night?  So we can trade them for second round picks?  We have enough second round picks.  I would rather they just buyout all three players and play our young players. James Young has only played in 10 games and got 6.6 minutes a game.  That is crazy as he has produced a respectable per of 15.9 in those limited minutes.  Lets see what he can do!  Would like to see Sullinger, Olynyk and Zeller getting 30 minutes a night, not the 28.7, 24.5 and 19.7 they have been getting.  I also want to see Smart getting more then 22 minutes a night and to play sg for time to time to see if we can get him going offensively.

I would not overpay any of the available free agents at this point who they have any real chance of making a run at so no I wouldn't sign one. This is not the time to take a gamble on the wrong guys. That's what Dumars did in Detroit. It's dumb and I can't think k of a situation where it has ever worked. I fully expect and am ok with them sucking next year while having the same team as now minus Thornton - Prince and Bass plus a few Rookies.

This I think is the most likely smartest long term course of action. I'm patient and am enjoying the rebuild to be honest. Not the losing part but the fact Danny has been smart with his moves and isn't panicking.

I haven't seen one free agent add that makes sense or is realistic.

[texs31]

Jan 25, 2015 10:37:35 GMT -5 wcp3 said:

So, you still wanna defend Chad Ford?

deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642

Given my usage of his (and others) draft boards, this doesn't matter much to me. I usually take a number of lists and create ranges for players. He doesn't necessarily have a bunch of outliers so he serves my needs.

[umassgrad2005]

Jan 25, 2015 10:37:35 GMT -5 wcp3 said:

So, you still wanna defend Chad Ford?

deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642

So he's a tool. This is very bad and ESPN should look at replacing him!. Now that doesn't change the fact that he still does have connections and doesn't get his information on google!

[umassgrad2005]

I want to go on record saying that Stanley Johnson would look real good in Green next year!

[texs31]

Ugh. 3 wins and a likely W against Minny. Bad road swing.

Detroit loses Jennings.

Not a great week for those of us hoping for a top pick.

[umassgrad2005]

We won't every get a top pick! We have a great coach and enough talent that it will never happen. That's why I think we need to look into free agents and trades this offseason. Late lottery picks aren't likely to get us the franchise players we need.

[texs31]

A) You keep ignoring the Brooklyn Picks. B) Before or just after the trade deadline, we'll likely get rid of Bass, Thornton and Prince (despite what's being said). That will help them lose more (while still playing hard) especially if KO is out for a significant amount of time. C) Getting a top pick, at this point, would be option #1. Fighting for the playoffs with our current youngsters, a late lottery pick next year and some bargain FA's is a better option to me than overpaying for next year's batch of Free Agents (with 1 or 2 exceptions that likely aren't going anywhere).

Maintaining flexibility while waiting to pounce when the RIGHT player(s) comes along (either by FA or Trade) should be the plan.

[wcp3]

The reality is that Boston simply isn't an appealing destination for NBA players.

Kevin Love was (is?) the most realistic FA option, but if he doesn't end up resigning with Cleveland, I have a feeling he ends up in LA.

[texs31]

Agreed. Until they get closer to being contender's, the draft and trades are the way this team is going to get better. For now, find the bargain FA's to fill in the blanks.

[rjp313jr]

Jan 28, 2015 11:55:55 GMT -5 wcp3 said:

The reality is that Boston simply isn't an appealing destination for NBA players.

Kevin Love was (is?) the most realistic FA option, but if he doesn't end up resigning with Cleveland, I have a feeling he ends up in LA.

This is 100% right, but it doesn't mean you overpay a mediocre free agent with "upside" to hope things hit right. You still do what Tex stated, stay patient, keep drafting where you are and try hit the right trade(s) when the timing is right. it may be 2 years from now, but you need to stay patient. I'm not sure why people are so anxious to become a bottom playoff team in the East. Isn't this team more interesting to watch than a team like that?

[umassgrad2005]

Well your over looking the fact that Sullinger and Zeller are restricted free agents after next year. You can't just keep waiting as you will start to use your cap space to resign your own free agents and not be able to sign max free agents. Danny needs to either gut this team and go for high lottery picks or make some trades or sign some free agents and start to build towards contention. I was hoping for a top 5 pick this year and an impact player, but that is looking more and more like a dream.

As to signing mediocre free agents with "upside", who exactly are you talking about?  DeAndre Jordan is not what I would call mediocre or someone that is seen as an upside player.  He is a good not great center that has some big limits on offensive, but is a beast on the boards and can control the paint.  Sure you can say that he isn't an elite defensive player, but he is a true rim protector that impacts games.  I feel he is a truly undervalued player that is far more important to the Clippers then people think or give him credit for.  He is a lot like Big Al, look at the Jazz after he left and what he has been able to do for the Hornets. 

For the record I want us to go for a top pick this year and see who we can get.  That would impact weather I would dive into free agency/trades.  But Danny has never had cap space before and I just get the feeling he'll sign at least one free agent next year that people will be upset about.

[wcp3]

Jordan's a lot more like Tyson Chandler than Big Al. He's an excellent center on a team that's the right fit (which isn't the Clippers).

But the Celts shouldn't even think about signing him. It flat out makes no sense for them.

[jmei]

Jordan is a useful player that would make the team better. But to sign him away from the Clippers (who are capped out and so will want to retain him) and convince him to join a rebuilding team, you'll need to give him something approaching a max deal. Which, well, no thanks.

[umassgrad2005]

Okay who do you see the Celtics signing this offseason? Danny is on record saying that he will go after free agents. I will say their is a 95% chance we sign a big name free agent, just not a franchise guy. This board seems to want to only sign franchise level free agents. Which is a great Idea if you could get them to sign, but we all know that's not going to happen. LeBron James, Love, Aldridge, and Gasol are not walking through that door without Danny making a Ray Allen type trade before hand! That leaves players like Al Jefferson, Jimmy Butler, Greg Monroe, DeAndre Jordan, Draymound Green, Roy Hibbert, Tobias Harris, Enes Kanter, Thaddeus Young and Robin Lopez as likely targets.

This team is closer to a playoff spot then they are to getting a top 5 pick. So its makes sense to sign some players and make the playoffs next year. Not much difference in the 10th pick and the 15th to 20th pick. Also being a young team making the playoffs would make you much more attractive to players as you would be a young up and coming team!

[texs31]

If you look at the 3 ways to build a team (FA, trades, draft):

Free Agency - As you lead with, those are the best guys on the market. Because Boston is not yet a "destination" (bc they aren't in a desirable locale and they aren't championship caliber), it's going to be tough to get them without overpaying. Butler is probably THE guy I'd go after but it's probably wasted effort. The others don't quite fit as the guys to target given their likely salaries and the roles they will play.

Trades - Here is where everyone says that Boston has the advantage given their assets. Well that's great but what's "for sale". I have yet to see any player rumored to be available (granted, it's early) that I'd give up a bunch of assets for.

Draft - Here is where Boston needs to hit. They have lot's of picks including some that have the potential of being high lotto picks (their own this year, maybe next and Brooklyn's picks). While they are closer to playoff's than a top 5 spot in the lottery, there are still moves to be made that could make them worse (trades and buyouts of guys who will likely not re-sign next year anyway). Besides, since 2005, only 3 teams with 1 of the worst 3 records have won the 1st overall pick. Teams with the 5th, 6th, 8th and 9th have come out on top over that time. I didn't even look to see picks 2 and 3. That's not to say that puts the odds in Boston's favor but it still puts their odds of winning the lottery higher than winning the championship.

Boston needs to take the rebuild process in stages:

Trade Deadline - see what you can get for Bass, Thornton and Prince (if someone wants to give you something for Turner, great).

Lottery - Nothing to do here but wait. Hey, maybe Griffin is down for a long time and LAC gets leap-frogged and winds up in the Lottery

Draft - Obviously, make the best picks available. Of course, Boston would like a wing scorer/defender and a rim-protector but they just need to take the best players and then figure out what to do.

Trades/Free Agency - be ready to pounce. If a trade opens up that makes you better (and not just for the short-term) than go for it. Once free agency begins, be smart with your cap room. Don't go maxing out players just to say you did and get a 6th spot. That could ruin you for a long time (ask Atlanta who is only good now that they got rid of the guy they overpaid for - Joe Johnson).

Patience is the key to the rebuild. As you said, they are close to the playoffs so we won't have to sit here and watch them be miserable. They are NOT close to a championship and they won't get close enough via Free Agency. Next year, unless they face major injuries, they'll be fighting for (if not a lock) for a playoff spot. Why not maintain their flexibility to make a meaningful move instead of one that gets you a slightly higher seed (still not likely a 1st round home court advantage) and takes away assets (cap space, draft picks, etc)?

[umassgrad2005]

This team just isn't your normal rebuild team. Heck before we even started to rebuild we had Sullinger and Bradley. Now we have Zeller, Smart and Young. Heck you can even add turner to the list. That's some talent and we have a GREAT coach that gets this team to play all out almost every game. Because of these things a typical rebuild through the draft is a long shot. We need a franchise player and history tells us those are found mostly in the top 5 picks. Also our GM isn't in tank mode, as he has not bought out player like Thorton, Bass and Prince. I see no reason to try and trade them for what some low second round picks? Danny seems to value his team to learn how to win over getting high lottery picks. This is why I think he goes out and signs at least one if not two players this off season. If you look at the 2015 free agent class and the 2016 one, the 2015 class is way better. Also Sullinger and Zeller are restricted free agents in 2016 so you could lose a bunch of cap space just keeping this team together. I think Danny is willing to add player in free agency because of the amount of future picks he has. Even if he capped out he'll be able to make trades to add players if he can turn the Celtics into a playoff team on the rise.

I think its time we face the fact that Danny is not going to take the long rebuild approach with this team. Once you understand that, what we do next is a lot easier to accept and plan for.

[wcp3]

Why would we accept a fact that's not a fact?

Danny has shown that he's willing to be extremely patient when he needs to be. But he's also constantly working the phones looking to make a big move, and he's more than willing to pull the trigger.

If there's a big free agent out there that would sign for a good deal (unlikely), then the Celts will go for it. Otherwise it'll be a lot of trade rumors, a busy draft, and another year of developing talent.

(Basically, what I'm saying is it's impossible to predict what Aigne will do this offseason. It all depends on how the market plays out.)

[texs31]

I like the young players we have but, outside of Smart, I'm not sure any of them serve as part of a starting 5 on a championship caliber team. Sully is probably closest but I'm worried that he's too inconsistent. Bradley, ideally, is a 6th man (and I think a very good one that's quite valuable). Some feel Young has the ability to be a star but you can't make a plan based on that yet.

I don't disagree with the fact that this team is better than your typical rebuild. I also don't disagree that, regardless of what happens the rest of THIS year, Boston will likely be a playoff team next year. What I DO disagree with is the idea that we should go after "big name" free agents just because of those things. You said it yourself, none of the stars will come here so what you're left with is overpaying for the guys with big blemishes. I don't want to take that approach and I don't believe Danny does either.

The difference between the past rebuild and this one is that Danny is not yet working with a STAR (like Pierce). Maybe it's Smart, less likely it's Young. The best part of the Garnett and Allen acquisitions were they were the perfect compliments to Pierce. The big man who was the defensive presence and the sharp shooter to go along with the Alpha Dog.

Let me ask you. Do you think there is anyone on that list that we should make the money-play for (again, that's what it will take)? Do any of them really push us on track for a championship team? I don't see it but I'm happy to discuss a scenario that would.

Again, I think you go into the draft andn see what you can put together. Then wait to see what the market does. Hey, maybe we wait it out and someone who is unhappy with their current situation falls in their laps. I just think Danny needs to be patient. I'm not saying to just tank next year. I'm saying don't make a power play on a FA unless you have MULTIPLE moves that, in essence, replaces most of the core that you are starting to build. Because there is no one deal that I, personally, feel confident will be the right addition to the team (because we don't yet know what the core pieces for the next championship team are yet . . . unless you count Smart - which we probably can't do quite yet).

[jmei]

Feb 9, 2015 15:05:25 GMT -5 umassgrad2005 said:

Also our GM isn't in tank mode, as he has not bought out player like Thorton, Bass and Prince. I see no reason to try and trade them for what some low second round picks? Danny seems to value his team to learn how to win over getting high lottery picks.

I'm not sure why you'd think that. His recent moves suggest the exact opposite-- he moved on from the KG/Pierce core despite that team being talented enough to be a mid-tier playoff team and moved on from Rondo and Green even though this year's team could have eased into the back end of the East playoff race. The reason Thornton and Bass and Prince are still on the roster is because their expiring contracts allow Ainge to become a part of any salary dump or three-team-trade opportunities that might come up, similar to how he snagged Zeller and a 1st in the Thornton trade. I am pretty confident that Ainge would rather be a lottery team this year than get the 8th spot in the playoffs.

[umassgrad2005]

Feb 9, 2015 15:38:52 GMT -5 jmei said:

Feb 9, 2015 15:05:25 GMT -5 umassgrad2005 said:

Also our GM isn't in tank mode, as he has not bought out player like Thorton, Bass and Prince. I see no reason to try and trade them for what some low second round picks? Danny seems to value his team to learn how to win over getting high lottery picks.

I'm not sure why you'd think that. His recent moves suggest the exact opposite-- he moved on from the KG/Pierce core despite that team being talented enough to be a mid-tier playoff team and moved on from Rondo and Green even though this year's team could have eased into the back end of the East playoff race. The reason Thornton and Bass and Prince are still on the roster is because their expiring contracts allow Ainge to become a part of any salary dump or three-team-trade opportunities that might come up, similar to how he snagged Zeller and a 1st in the Thornton trade. I am pretty confident that Ainge would rather be a lottery team this year than get the 8th spot in the playoffs.

Couldn't disagree more.  Just because it makes sense to have Bass, Prince and Thorton on the roster that doesn't mean they have to play them! The GM is the boss of the coach, so if Danny told Stevens to play all the young guys and not the vets that is what he would do. You have to understand Danny see this as a rebuild not a tank job to get Boston the best pick we can. Would you really rather have lets say the 10th pick over getting playoff experience and the 15th pick?  I will take the playoff experience over the slightly higher pick.  Don't get me wrong I want us to tank this year, but we are trying to win every game we can and thus will be lucky to get a top 10 pick, never mind the top 5 pick we really need.  Your going to say the Vets will be gone soon so we'll get worse.  Don't buy it.  James young looks like he can take Thorton minutes and produce.  Smart is really starting to come along.  An increase in Zellers minutes might help this team.  Don't think Danny gets Rid of more then one of those three Vets, maybe none.  Have been rumors that team might want to resign Bass and keep Prince for rest of year.  Also remember this is the time of year when a lot of teams start to tank.   

I think Stevens is a great coach, he's almost too good to be coaching a rebuilding team.  He makes tanking almost impossible, the team comes to play 95% of the time.  I think Danny sees this and is starting to change course.  Show the players how to win, get the young guys some great experience and keep the coach happy.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Danny make a trade at the deadline and add a player to help us this year.

[texs31]

They are hoping to get value for them. You don't get that by sitting them for a month.

This, too, requires patience.

[jmei]

Feb 10, 2015 0:42:42 GMT -5 umassgrad2005 said:

Just because it makes sense to have Bass, Prince and Thorton on the roster that doesn't mean they have to play them! The GM is the boss of the coach, so if Danny told Stevens to play all the young guys and not the vets that is what he would do.

The GM-coach relationship doesn't work like that. The GM cannot unilaterally dictate playing time decisions without (rightfully) upsetting the coach. We've seen this time and time again-- see Billy Beane and Art Howe (as memorialized in Moneyball) or Farrell playing Gomes over Nava versus RHP or Drew over Bogaerts versus LHP. This dynamic is exacerbated every time you have the inherent conflict of interest that emerges between a competitive coach who wants to win every game and a GM who would prefer the team get higher draft position and play its young players. If the guy is otherwise a good coach (as Stevens appears to be), it's not worth potentially alienating him over what is ultimately a pretty minor issue, especially if you're going to buy out or trade guys like Prince at or soon after the trade deadline anyways.

Feb 10, 2015 0:42:42 GMT -5 umassgrad2005 said:

Would you really rather have lets say the 10th pick over getting playoff experience and the 15th pick?  I will take the playoff experience over the slightly higher pick. 

Yes, absolutely I would. Not only is there a significant difference in expected value between the 10th and 15th pick, but the 10th pick comes with a roughly 4% chance of vaulting into the top three picks, which is pretty valuable. I'm also skeptical of how much long-term value comes from getting swept in the first round.

[jmei]

One guy to watch in terms of a potential acquisition, either by trade at the deadline or in RFA this offseason: Enes Kanter. He's a pretty good offensive center and has improved defensively, and with the emergence of Rudy Gobert, he might be expendible. He's never going to be a superstar, but he's just 22 and could develop into an All-Star caliber guy.

[umassgrad2005]

I like Kanter, just don't like the fit on our team currently. The guy we need is Rudy Gobert or someone like him. When you have Sullinger and Olynyk as your pf and Zeller as your center you need a rim protector.

I know a good coach wants to win and a GM needs to trust his coach so this is a touchy matter. I'm not talking about Danny telling Stevens who to play on a game to game basis. But the GM has the right at the start of the season to tell the coach we are going with the young guys. Stevens knew 100% that he was coming to a team that just started a rebuild. Do you really think Danny doesn't have a little say in who plays and who doesn't? Every year you watch teams show case players for trades. That is the GM telling the coach who to play.

Danny is loving being trader Danny and is too focused on what he can get for Prince, Bass and Thorton that he is losing track of what is really important. That is getting a top 5 pick. We need a franchise player. Getting a top 5 pick this year is just about over. Sure maybe we get lucky, but it's a very long shot at this point. I've never wanted the Celtics to lose more in my life. I am really hating the way this season has gone. This team seems to be getting better and better. We are one and a half games out of 8th spot and five and a half games away from have the 5th worst record.

[xxdamgoodxx]

On the Enes Kanter trade rumors: the philosophy of trading one of the first-rounders for a talented player that could be a good fit for the Stevens system is sound, but if Kanter wants more playing time, he won't find it with the Celtics. His strengths are also redundant with Sully and KO. On Dragic rumors: if a 28-year-old Brandon Bass is not part of our future and sure to be traded because he's in the last year of his deal, why would Dragic be a core piece?