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Where are they now?: The former Sox thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 16, 2017 21:14:09 GMT -5
Considering that he was last in the Red Sox system in 2008, we'll give you a pass. lol, he also changed his name from Dunebuggy Smith.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 17, 2017 14:06:32 GMT -5
You feel better about Moncada now? After a .233 .350 .420 .770 line? 58 strikeouts in 41 games. For .7 bwar.
Benintendi .277 .356 .436 .792 line, only 98 strikeouts in 138 games. For a 2.6 bwar.
So Moncada is below Benintendi level per game, would be 2.4 bwar pro-rated for 138 games. For me Moncada's value has gone way down. Still a good young player, but not the beast we thought.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 17, 2017 14:47:30 GMT -5
You feel better about Moncada now? After a .233 .350 .420 .770 line? 58 strikeouts in 41 games. For .7 bwar. Benintendi .277 .356 .436 .792 line, only 98 strikeouts in 138 games. For a 2.6 bwar. So Moncada is below Benintendi level per game, would be 2.4 bwar pro-rated for 138 games. For me Moncada's value has gone way down. Still a good young player, but not the beast we thought. If you assumed for some reason that Moncada was going to be a monster the second he came up, then yeah. But I'm waiting until we're a few years in. Switch hitter who was going to need to adjust to MLB pitching didn't strike me as an immediate success profile. EDIT: Also, there's evidence he's already figuring it out. July: .105/.261/.263 16 K in 46 PA, .143 BABIP Aug 1 to present: .277/.382/.473 42K in 131 PA, .400 BABIP Strikeouts are still an issue, but the numbers are trending up.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 17, 2017 16:27:23 GMT -5
Moncada has a 110 wRC+. I still think he's a monster in the making.
Even so, I'd be happy with the trade.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 17, 2017 16:49:25 GMT -5
Moncada has a 110 wRC+. I still think he's a monster in the making. Even so, I'd be happy with the trade. Yeah, this trade played out *exactly* as I expected. Edit: pretty much exactly what most expected, really. I love watching Sale, and he gives them a real edge, but I still don't like it. Basically, it's always going to boil down to those who are more concerned with short-term vs long-term winning. It's a pointless debate, because it depends on each individual's weighting of those concerns. I'm going to sit back and enjoy Sale, and hope the guys they kept are awesome. What's done is done.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 17, 2017 17:31:17 GMT -5
Moncada has a 110 wRC+. I still think he's a monster in the making. Even so, I'd be happy with the trade. Yeah, this trade played out *exactly* as I expected. Edit: pretty much exactly what most expected, really. I love watching Sale, and he gives them a real edge, but I still don't like it. Basically, it's always going to boil down to those who are more concerned with short-term vs long-term winning. It's a pointless debate, because it depends on each individual's weighting of those concerns. I'm going to sit back and enjoy Sale, and hope the guys they kept are awesome. What's done is done. Exactly. Sooner or later the Red Sox will likely lose the war with the treadmill. They'll need young talent to fill in the gaps and it won't be as available as it had been. This begets losing which begets rebuilding which is usually enhanced by selling off the assets you have in a losing year and then you have young talent and then comes competition, need to win, veterans imported at the expense of kids during the competitive cycle, and then around we go again. I just hope when/if the Red Sox get to the point where the prospects aren't there and the talent they have isn't going to get them far enough to really challenge for anything significant and the core is aging, I hope the Red Sox are honest enough, which they have been for the most part, and rebuild, and whoever does the rebuilding, whether it's Dombrowski or his successor, has good judgment in the acquisition of young talent through trades, and hopefully the Red Sox draft well or do well in acquiring young international talent, and the Sox have the next good young core in place sooner than later.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 17, 2017 18:40:44 GMT -5
You feel better about Moncada now? After a .233 .350 .420 .770 line? 58 strikeouts in 41 games. For .7 bwar. Benintendi .277 .356 .436 .792 line, only 98 strikeouts in 138 games. For a 2.6 bwar. So Moncada is below Benintendi level per game, would be 2.4 bwar pro-rated for 138 games. For me Moncada's value has gone way down. Still a good young player, but not the beast we thought. I'd be really happy if his currently listed -2 DRS was accurate, whereas they had him at +5, and 1.4 bWAR yesterday. That's a huge difference. But it's a mistake in the data feed from BIS. BillJamesOnline has the full breakdown, and has Moncada as +7 runs Plus/Minus, -2 Runs Good Fielding Plays, for a total of -2. Oops. That's a 2.6 bWAR error per 150 games. B-Ref also has Mookie as +4 DRS and 3.4 WAR.His BJO breakdown has the same bug -- 26 Plus / Minus, 4 GFP, for a total of ... 4. Which is to say, for today at least, all of bWAR is broken (2017 only)
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 12:37:15 GMT -5
You feel better about Moncada now? After a .233 .350 .420 .770 line? 58 strikeouts in 41 games. For .7 bwar. Benintendi .277 .356 .436 .792 line, only 98 strikeouts in 138 games. For a 2.6 bwar. So Moncada is below Benintendi level per game, would be 2.4 bwar pro-rated for 138 games. For me Moncada's value has gone way down. Still a good young player, but not the beast we thought. If you assumed for some reason that Moncada was going to be a monster the second he came up, then yeah. But I'm waiting until we're a few years in. Switch hitter who was going to need to adjust to MLB pitching didn't strike me as an immediate success profile. EDIT: Also, there's evidence he's already figuring it out. July: .105/.261/.263 16 K in 46 PA, .143 BABIP Aug 1 to present: .277/.382/.473 42K in 131 PA, .400 BABIP Strikeouts are still an issue, but the numbers are trending up. He was the #1 prospect in Baseball. So I expected a lot, that's not unreasonable. His stock has dropped, as he has a major strikeout issue. Last year if you asked everyone what Moncada would do in his first 42 games, everyone would have had him with better numbers. Including yourself. Aug 10th .213 .377 .377 .754 Sept 9th .179 .319 .330 .649 Sept 17th .227 .343 .409 .752 He has had a good 8 game stretch. Let's see how he does long-term. He has done this before. Last 8 games he has 9 strikeouts. While an improvement, it's still horrible. Still a very good young player, but he certainly doesn't look like that super elite guy he did a year ago. I don't know how you can feel better about him now compared to a year ago.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 12:42:27 GMT -5
You feel better about Moncada now? After a .233 .350 .420 .770 line? 58 strikeouts in 41 games. For .7 bwar. Benintendi .277 .356 .436 .792 line, only 98 strikeouts in 138 games. For a 2.6 bwar. So Moncada is below Benintendi level per game, would be 2.4 bwar pro-rated for 138 games. For me Moncada's value has gone way down. Still a good young player, but not the beast we thought. I'd be really happy if his currently listed -2 DRS was accurate, whereas they had him at +5, and 1.4 bWAR yesterday. That's a huge difference. But it's a mistake in the data feed from BIS. BillJamesOnline has the full breakdown, and has Moncada as +7 runs Plus/Minus, -2 Runs Good Fielding Plays, for a total of -2. Oops. That's a 2.6 bWAR error per 150 games. B-Ref also has Mookie as +4 DRS and 3.4 WAR.His BJO breakdown has the same bug -- 26 Plus / Minus, 4 GFP, for a total of ... 4. Which is to say, for today at least, all of bWAR is broken (2017 only) I checked Baseball Refrence and Fangraphs. They had him at .7 and .6. Baseball Refrence has since changed, but Fangraph is currently the same .6 war and -2 DRS. You are saying those are wrong?
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 18, 2017 12:54:52 GMT -5
He was the #1 prospect in Baseball. Which is totally different than being major-league ready. Byron Buxton went through these exact same expectations a year ago, with people being down on him because he wasn't ready, right down to the strikeout issues. Since 7/1, he's at .332/.379/.601. So, If you're going to be down on Moncada after the season he's had, I don't know what to tell you. If you're disappointed by a .752 OPS and 1.2 bWAR in 42 games out of a 22-year-old then that's you're prerogative. I'm not going to tell you how to enjoy baseball. Also, the nine strikeouts in 8 games which you define as "horrible" is actually a 22.0 K%, because he's gotten up 41 times in those 8 games. For comparison's sake, Paul Goldschmidt (who I don't think anyone would classify as someone who strikes out particularly frequently) is at 21.8% for the season. Marcell Ozuna at 22.2% Giancarlo Stanton is at 23.7%. Cody Bellinger at 26.0%. Justin Upton at 27.5%. Aaron Judge at 31.6%.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 18, 2017 13:12:34 GMT -5
If you assumed for some reason that Moncada was going to be a monster the second he came up, then yeah. But I'm waiting until we're a few years in. Switch hitter who was going to need to adjust to MLB pitching didn't strike me as an immediate success profile. EDIT: Also, there's evidence he's already figuring it out. July: .105/.261/.263 16 K in 46 PA, .143 BABIP Aug 1 to present: .277/.382/.473 42K in 131 PA, .400 BABIP Strikeouts are still an issue, but the numbers are trending up. He was the #1 prospect in Baseball. So I expected a lot, that's not unreasonable. His stock has dropped, as he has a major strikeout issue. Last year if you asked everyone what Moncada would do in his first 42 games, everyone would have had him with better numbers. Including yourself. Aug 10th .213 .377 .377 .754 Sept 9th .179 .319 .330 .649 Sept 17th .227 .343 .409 .752 He has had a good 8 game stretch. Let's see how he does long-term. He has done this before. Last 8 games he has 9 strikeouts. While an improvement, it's still horrible. Still a very good young player, but he certainly doesn't look like that super elite guy he did a year ago. I don't know how you can feel better about him now compared to a year ago.A year ago, he concluded his MLB debut by striking out in 8 consecutive at-bats and looking completely out of his comfort zone. You really can't see how this year marks an improvement for Moncada?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 18, 2017 13:16:04 GMT -5
Last year if you asked everyone what Moncada would do in his first 42 games, everyone would have had him with better numbers. Including yourself. This is a complete straw man and not true both in that you're overestimating what "everyone" including me would have predicted and in that you're underestimating what he's done. Here's what Ian had to say when he was called up last year, which I agreed with (go listen to the podcast if you don't believe me): "How he will perform, however, is still a question mark, as he is not a finished product and is more raw than Benintendi was when he made the same jump from Double-A to the big leagues a few weeks ago. Out of the gate, there could be some struggles, both at the plate and in the field," I'm also the one who's always on here screaming that development isn't linear and that adjusting to the major leagues can't be expected overnight. Assuming just because a guy is the number 1 prospect in baseball that he's not going to struggle at all upon being promoted is silly. Look at Byron Buxton - it looks like he's finally starting to figure it out and he's basically in his third season. We've always said Moncada was more raw. He's the toolshed that's going to need some time to round out his game. As for what he has done so far: Average MLB 2B: .269/.332/.423 Moncada: .227/.343/.409 He's got a .329 wOBA and 105 wRC+. He's been just fine so far.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 13:31:27 GMT -5
The big issue here seems to be Moncadas defensive value. Baseball Refrence is 5 DRS, Fangraphs is -2 DRS. The diffrence basically doubles his war and changes everything. 1.2 bwar to .6 fwar.
So I looked at Moncadas defensive numbers. Soneone needs to explain to me how Baseball Refrence numbers aren't messed up. They make no sense. Moncada's DRS and Dwar are higher than Pedroia's GG 2014 season per game, yet Moncada has crapy defensive numbers across the board. 7 errors in 42 games, below league average in fielding %, and range factor numbers.
Pedroia played 135 games, 2 errors, .997% fielding and had well above league average fielding % and Range numbers in his 2014 GG season.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 18, 2017 13:43:19 GMT -5
The bigger issue is that you think his defensive statistics over 42 games have a meaningful impact on how we should value him as a prospect long-term.
EDIT: And suppose fangraphs is right (and UZR is a broken measure but let's just roll with it). That makes him a 2.5 fWAR player over a full season, as a 22-year-old who is still really raw especially from the right side of the plate. That's the glass-half-empty version of Moncada right now.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 13:46:27 GMT -5
He was the #1 prospect in Baseball. Which is totally different than being major-league ready. Byron Buxton went through these exact same expectations a year ago, with people being down on him because he wasn't ready, right down to the strikeout issues. Since 7/1, he's at .332/.379/.601. So, If you're going to be down on Moncada after the season he's had, I don't know what to tell you. If you're disappointed by a .752 OPS and 1.2 bWAR in 42 games out of a 22-year-old then that's you're prerogative. I'm not going to tell you how to enjoy baseball. Also, the nine strikeouts in 8 games which you define as "horrible" is actually a 22.0 K%, because he's gotten up 41 times in those 8 games. For comparison's sake, Paul Goldschmidt (who I don't think anyone would classify as someone who strikes out particularly frequently) is at 21.8% for the season. Marcell Ozuna at 22.2% Giancarlo Stanton is at 23.7%. Cody Bellinger at 26.0%. Justin Upton at 27.5%. Aaron Judge at 31.6%. Is that 1.2 bwar legit? It makes no sense, yesterdays numbers made sense. So during his hot streaks Moncada has a strikeout rate equal to other sluggers yearly numbers.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 13:48:48 GMT -5
He was the #1 prospect in Baseball. So I expected a lot, that's not unreasonable. His stock has dropped, as he has a major strikeout issue. Last year if you asked everyone what Moncada would do in his first 42 games, everyone would have had him with better numbers. Including yourself. Aug 10th .213 .377 .377 .754 Sept 9th .179 .319 .330 .649 Sept 17th .227 .343 .409 .752 He has had a good 8 game stretch. Let's see how he does long-term. He has done this before. Last 8 games he has 9 strikeouts. While an improvement, it's still horrible. Still a very good young player, but he certainly doesn't look like that super elite guy he did a year ago. I don't know how you can feel better about him now compared to a year ago.A year ago, he concluded his MLB debut by striking out in 8 consecutive at-bats and looking completely out of his comfort zone. You really can't see how this year marks an improvement for Moncada? A year ago it was just a few games. He needed more time. Now it's a legit problem.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 18, 2017 13:50:26 GMT -5
Which is totally different than being major-league ready. Byron Buxton went through these exact same expectations a year ago, with people being down on him because he wasn't ready, right down to the strikeout issues. Since 7/1, he's at .332/.379/.601. So, If you're going to be down on Moncada after the season he's had, I don't know what to tell you. If you're disappointed by a .752 OPS and 1.2 bWAR in 42 games out of a 22-year-old then that's you're prerogative. I'm not going to tell you how to enjoy baseball. Also, the nine strikeouts in 8 games which you define as "horrible" is actually a 22.0 K%, because he's gotten up 41 times in those 8 games. For comparison's sake, Paul Goldschmidt (who I don't think anyone would classify as someone who strikes out particularly frequently) is at 21.8% for the season. Marcell Ozuna at 22.2% Giancarlo Stanton is at 23.7%. Cody Bellinger at 26.0%. Justin Upton at 27.5%. Aaron Judge at 31.6%. Is that 1.2 bwar legit? It makes no sense, yesterdays numbers made sense. So during his hot streaks Moncada has a strikeout rate equal to other sluggers yearly numbers. The updated numbers are correct.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 13:54:45 GMT -5
Last year if you asked everyone what Moncada would do in his first 42 games, everyone would have had him with better numbers. Including yourself. This is a complete straw man and not true both in that you're overestimating what "everyone" including me would have predicted and in that you're underestimating what he's done. Here's what Ian had to say when he was called up last year, which I agreed with (go listen to the podcast if you don't believe me): "How he will perform, however, is still a question mark, as he is not a finished product and is more raw than Benintendi was when he made the same jump from Double-A to the big leagues a few weeks ago. Out of the gate, there could be some struggles, both at the plate and in the field," I'm also the one who's always on here screaming that development isn't linear and that adjusting to the major leagues can't be expected overnight. Assuming just because a guy is the number 1 prospect in baseball that he's not going to struggle at all upon being promoted is silly. Look at Byron Buxton - it looks like he's finally starting to figure it out and he's basically in his third season. We've always said Moncada was more raw. He's the toolshed that's going to need some time to round out his game. As for what he has done so far: Average MLB 2B: .269/.332/.423 Moncada: .227/.343/.409 He's got a .329 wOBA and 105 wRC+. He's been just fine so far. I agree with most of what you said. Would you have guessed his troubles would be this bad though? That he would be hitting. 227 on Sept 17th? I'm not saying he still can't be good, but his value has gone down. Same thing with Buxton, his value went way down.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2017 13:59:22 GMT -5
Is that 1.2 bwar legit? It makes no sense, yesterdays numbers made sense. So during his hot streaks Moncada has a strikeout rate equal to other sluggers yearly numbers. The updated numbers are correct. Can you please explain how that makes sense? How can you play 42 games, make 7 errors, have below league average fielding and range numbers by a big margin but be an awesome defender? I could understand it if his range numbers were off the chart, but they aren't.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 18, 2017 14:03:45 GMT -5
...I agree with most of what you said. Would you have guessed his troubles would be this bad though? That he would be hitting. 227 on Sept 17th? I'm not saying he still can't be good, but his value has gone down. Same thing with Buxton, his value went way down. This is something that's been talked about a bit. I was in the same boat as Hatfield. I think he'll figure it out, but none of this is either quick or easy. It's hard to say what the trajectory will be, but he's very young and he has lots of time to kick it into gear. There were a few people on the board who suggested the troubles he might have, without having to guess at it either. He was slowing down in the high minors, with a lot of Ks, and he looked to be fumbling around on breaking pitches in the majors. That will not get anyone very far. He'll be mentored and hopefully that all leads to a better understanding of what pitchers are trying to do and how. The raw skills alone - and he has a ton of those - won't get him to that next level. But hard work just might do that.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 18, 2017 15:15:12 GMT -5
This is a complete straw man and not true both in that you're overestimating what "everyone" including me would have predicted and in that you're underestimating what he's done. Here's what Ian had to say when he was called up last year, which I agreed with (go listen to the podcast if you don't believe me): "How he will perform, however, is still a question mark, as he is not a finished product and is more raw than Benintendi was when he made the same jump from Double-A to the big leagues a few weeks ago. Out of the gate, there could be some struggles, both at the plate and in the field," I'm also the one who's always on here screaming that development isn't linear and that adjusting to the major leagues can't be expected overnight. Assuming just because a guy is the number 1 prospect in baseball that he's not going to struggle at all upon being promoted is silly. Look at Byron Buxton - it looks like he's finally starting to figure it out and he's basically in his third season. We've always said Moncada was more raw. He's the toolshed that's going to need some time to round out his game. As for what he has done so far: Average MLB 2B: .269/.332/.423 Moncada: .227/.343/.409 He's got a .329 wOBA and 105 wRC+. He's been just fine so far. I agree with most of what you said. Would you have guessed his troubles would be this bad though? That he would be hitting. 227 on Sept 17th? I'm not saying he still can't be good, but his value has gone down. Same thing with Buxton, his value went way down. I'm going to stop engaging in this discussion now. You've posted on here for a long time. I know you know much better than to use batting average by itself as something with any meaning whatsoever (I mean, you're discussing individual components of bWAR in other posts in this thread), and I know that once engaging in a debate you pretty much refuse to back down from whatever initial position you've taken and use whatever means necessary to keep from doing so. So in order to keep this thread from coming completely undone (too late?), I'm out.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 18, 2017 15:51:56 GMT -5
The updated numbers are correct. Can you please explain how that makes sense? How can you play 42 games, make 7 errors, have below league average fielding and range numbers by a big margin but be an awesome defender? I could understand it if his range numbers were off the chart, but they aren't. But they are. DRS has him at +3 outs to his right, 0 dead on, and +6 to his left, plus +1 in the air for a total of +9. That's actually 5.4 runs, so his +5 DRS is not rounded up and may be rounded down. BIS his him at 28 plays made out of zone. In less than a quarter of a season. That's a pace for 102 in 150 games. Pedroia has averaged 47 per 150 games in his career, with a high of 63 in 2013. He's been inconsistent, but he's getting to balls that nobody gets to.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 19, 2017 11:23:34 GMT -5
If you assumed for some reason that Moncada was going to be a monster the second he came up, then yeah. But I'm waiting until we're a few years in. Switch hitter who was going to need to adjust to MLB pitching didn't strike me as an immediate success profile. EDIT: Also, there's evidence he's already figuring it out. July: .105/.261/.263 16 K in 46 PA, .143 BABIP Aug 1 to present: .277/.382/.473 42K in 131 PA, .400 BABIP Strikeouts are still an issue, but the numbers are trending up. He was the #1 prospect in Baseball. So I expected a lot, that's not unreasonable. His stock has dropped, as he has a major strikeout issue. Last year if you asked everyone what Moncada would do in his first 42 games, everyone would have had him with better numbers. Including yourself. Aug 10th .213 .377 .377 .754 Sept 9th .179 .319 .330 .649 Sept 17th .227 .343 .409 .752 He has had a good 8 game stretch. Let's see how he does long-term. He has done this before. Last 8 games he has 9 strikeouts. While an improvement, it's still horrible. Still a very good young player, but he certainly doesn't look like that super elite guy he did a year ago. I don't know how you can feel better about him now compared to a year ago. Because he's actually having MLB success, and progressively improving. His ceiling hasn't changed. His floor has risen. It's pretty basic to me. I think you're extrapolating your own reasoning to presuming others think the same way, which isn't true. The best counterexample I can give is Byron Buxton. He set his floor as a 2-3 WAR defensive genius. His ceiling never changed, but maybe the likelihood of reaching it *appeared* to. But until a guy gets 1000 MLB PAs, as Ted Williams said, there's no sense in passing judgement. Now Buxton is breaking out, right at that threshold. JBJ did the same. Any attribution of early struggles on Moncada's part to a sign of fatal flaws and reduced ceiling is, at this point, an illusion.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 19, 2017 11:38:07 GMT -5
I moved the Moncada talk, which didn't have anything to do with the Sale trade per se, in here. Moncada bows at #2 on the IL Top 20 prospects list at BA today, behind Acuna: www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2017-international-league-top-20-prospects/#K60cWtbU6OyDqHDi.97I won't copy/paste his whole writeup, which is behind the paywall, but they reiterate he has some of the best tools in baseball, including plus power and speed. Also says scouts were impressed with his progress at second base. Negatives included, interestingly, his makeup, with questions about his "mentality and effort level," as scouts noted "lackadaisical play and preparation." Also notes his ability to hit for average "is an open question" and his surging strikeout rate, and says that some scouts don't like his RH swing. Effort thing was the only surprise in there for me. Keith Law had noted it once, but we hadn't heard about it otherwise. I'm inclined to chalk it up to him biding his time in AAA knowing he was coming up to the majors at some point, but we'll see.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2017 13:47:01 GMT -5
Can you please explain how that makes sense? How can you play 42 games, make 7 errors, have below league average fielding and range numbers by a big margin but be an awesome defender? I could understand it if his range numbers were off the chart, but they aren't. But they are. DRS has him at +3 outs to his right, 0 dead on, and +6 to his left, plus +1 in the air for a total of +9. That's actually 5.4 runs, so his +5 DRS is not rounded up and may be rounded down. BIS his him at 28 plays made out of zone. In less than a quarter of a season. That's a pace for 102 in 150 games. Pedroia has averaged 47 per 150 games in his career, with a high of 63 in 2013. He's been inconsistent, but he's getting to balls that nobody gets to. If he is getting to like .67 balls nobody gets to per game. How does he have a below average amount of assists and putouts per game and per 9 innings? That's the whole argument, his fielding % is bad and he makes a ton of errors, but his great range gets you more assists and putouts. He is not doing that. I looked at Sanchez the guy he replaced to see if it was just the team. It's not, he has an above average range factor. So I looked at Pedroia and Kinsler two great defenders, with great range in there prime. They constantly put up well above average range factors, year in and year out. Yet Moncada is currently playing at a level that neither player played at supposedly. Yet he is making way more errors, way lower fielding % and below average range factors numbers. It makes no sense. Then you add in that Fangraph has him as a negative defender, unlike Baseball Refrence who has him at GG level. Those two stats aren't always the same, but they are usually close. It doesn't add up. It also doesn't match the scouting reports. He has this type of upside, but needed to refine his skills. The numbers back up the scouting reports and Fangraphs, not Baseball Refrence.
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